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I just found out about the plan to pull traffic off the 52 bridge directly down Prince Street to the dead-end at Broadway and Prince/4th, the most heavily pedenstrianized area of Lowertown. No meeting was posted to discuss this, so residents were never given an opportunity to point out what an AWFUL IDEA this is! Please CHANGE THIS PLAN so that traffic from 52 will land in a safer, less destructive place. There is no need to destroy one of the only two gardens in Lowertown, or create a high risk traffic situation for residents and visitors.
40 Kommentierens
Ben Krywosz (Gast)
Richard Abraham (Gast)
Rick Anderson (Gast)
Sosan Flynn (Gast)
Sosan Flynn (Gast)
Serena (Registrierter Benutzer)
From Nigel Parry on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151463567152864&set=gm.10152913180440403&type=1
Pat Lindgren, from Councilman Dave Thune's office, commented on Nigel's post, asking people to make lots of complaints on this seeclickfix.com site. I've left a message with Ms. Lindgren this morning to confirm all this, but it looks right.
Serena (Registrierter Benutzer)
Sosan, that is a beautiful film! But my understanding is that this decision was made recently. I'll post the result of my phone contact with Pat Lindgren hopefully after she returns my call later today.
My info came from Nigel Parry's Facebook post (link above), which said:
"It's a done deal at this point according to Pat Lindgren, Councilman Dave Thune's assistant. No one turned up at the planning meeting apparently, no doubt because there was nothing posted around town."
Pat Lindgren, from Councilman Dave Thune's office, commented on that post:
"Please register a complaint on http://seeclickfix.com/st_paul... In fact, register a lot of complaints"
Sam chapirson (Gast)
Jennifer Dorris (Gast)
Cynthia U (Gast)
Rick Anderson (Gast)
http://www.dot.state.mn.us/lafayettebridge/
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Nigel Parry (Registrierter Benutzer)
Nigel Parry (Registrierter Benutzer)
Mark Neuman-Scott (Gast)
Cami Applequist (Gast)
Barry White (Gast)
Amyjoy (Gast)
Jim Ivey (Registrierter Benutzer)
We've been screwed on this from the day that the OMF got railroaded into that location, and further screwed when the Met Council was allowed to put their mechanicals outside the building. With that said, I'm disappointed that there hasn't been a response to this thread yet from Public Works or the City Council, because there are answers to some of these questions, and they need to step up on the rest. Here are some specific things that I heard back in April at one of the public meetings (there were at least two, and one of them was at the Black Dog). Hopefully these details are still accurate.
1) The intent was not to have southbound traffic barreling off of Hwy 52 and through Prince onto Broadway. There was supposed be a T intersection back by the Downtowner, and then at least one more intersection at Lafayette Road (currently the short street under Hwy 52). The plan was to shape and sign the road in a way that will direct traffic down Lafayette Road to Kellogg, for parking at the depot and for access to the rest of downtown. Prince was supposed to be a narrow neighborhood street with traffic calming measures, and clearly designed to be a "Complete Street" focused on the safety of people walking and biking.
2) The lane shift that Prince will have to make (due to the idiotic decisions about the OMF location and further compounded idiotic decisions to put their mechanicals outside the building) will end up pushing the southern sidewalk down into the first few feet (10?) of the garden. This sucks, but we won't be losing the entire garden, and maybe we can push the city to design the interface between the sidewalk and the remaining portion of the garden as something that includes a nice retaining wall, seating, lighting, planters, noise barriers, etc. The real nightmare is that the city doesn't actually own the land where the garden is. Gillette still owns it, and for all we know they might just show up someday and kick us off.
3) The plan is to include nice sidewalks, trees and lighting along the length of Prince to make it friendly (and safer) for pedestrians. Right now it's like walking through a war zone.
4) The plan is to include a protected bike path along the OMF side of Prince to safely bring bike commuters and recreational cyclists all the way from the Gateway Trail and Bruce Vento to Broadway. Right now bikes are forced onto Kellogg or 7th, neither of which has any kind of bike infrastructure, and both of which have multiple lanes of fast-moving traffic.
That's all I remember at the moment. I agree that it would be insane if Public Works was planning on routing traffic from Hwy 52 into downtown via Prince Street, but the traffic engineer that presented at the public meeting (Jesse Farrell from Public Works) stressed repeatedly that Prince is supposed to be a neighborhood street, focused on being an asset for people walking and biking. The segment between Broadway and Lafayette will potentially be something that can continue to be a neighborhood event place, where we could regularly get permits to shut it down and have weeknight markets or mini art crawls or whatever we want. Car traffic was supposed to be primarily routed toward Kellogg via Lafayette Road. The Union Depot will be building out the eastern parking lots to add more parking, and the Kellogg stoplight just east of Broadway will be moved down to Lafayette Road to make it easier for traffic to get onto and cross Kellogg. So there will be numerous incentives, in addition to the streetscape design proposed by Public Works, to steer cars toward Kellogg instead of Broadway.
If people want more details, I'd suggest voting this issue up, sending emails to the mayor and Dave Thune, and asking Public Works for detailed schematics of exactly how it will all be laid out. Jesse Farrell (the traffic engineer) came down to the Black Dog to talk to people at least once, and I'm sure he'd be willing to come down again and answer questions.
Nigel Parry (Registrierter Benutzer)
Jim Ives: "The real nightmare is that the city doesn't actually own the land where the garden is. Gillette still owns it, and for all we know they might just show up someday and kick us off."
Jim, from what Matthew Rucker says, the land is actually in an abandoned status now, it's not Gillette's or the City's. This opens up the possibility of ArtSpace buying it.
I would like to suggest that the City or other owners give back the corner of the TransPark lot that would "complete" the Gateway Park into a larger square. This is one of two parks in Lowertown, how about making it a nicer one?
Jim Ivey (Registrierter Benutzer)
Iampatrick (Gast)
Jiffy (Registrierter Benutzer)
Nigel Parry (Registrierter Benutzer)
Jim (Ives, sorry, not Ivy!): It would be good to have a meeting with Dave Thune, Matthew Rucker and Andrew Remke (Black Dog) as they have been following the progress of this and we can piece together the reality and get up to speed. I keep hearing different things.
I like the pedestrian street idea, similar to the one outside Great Waters Brewery/Artists' Quarter. A weekend art market would be awesome.
Serena (Registrierter Benutzer)
Jim Ivey (Registrierter Benutzer)
To Patrick's idea about taking over the street on a regular basis, the Dayton's Bluff Community Council is doing something similar on Thursday nights, where they block off Margaret St between 7th and Arcade, and have a neighborhood market. Here's a link to their Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/MarketOnTheBluff.
They kicked off the first event in conjunction with the St. Paul Better Block project, which is something we should also try to do in Lowertown: http://teambetterblock.com/saintpaul/.
Melissa Martinez-Sones, the director for the downtown district council (http://www.capitolrivercouncil.org/) is meeting with the organizer for the Market on the Bluff next week, so hopefully they can share ideas and lessons learned about taking back streets to benefit the neighborhood (instead of cars just passing through).
jlynn (Gast)
Jiffy (Registrierter Benutzer)
Is this information still accurate?
http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_23099946/st-paul-spend-3-38m-improve-prince-street
Jim Ivey (Gast)
Serena (Registrierter Benutzer)
Good news! I just talked to Jesse Farrell, St. Paul City Engineer involved with planning the Prince Street project.
I learned two things:
1) Construction will not start on the Prince Street project for at least a couple months (MNDot must still approve the plans).
2) The current Prince Street Project does NOT involve any connection with an exit off of 52. It may be part of a future plan years away, with plenty of time for all of us to examine and discuss plans with the City of St. Paul.
I will post a detailed written description of the current Prince Street project in the next few days.
Serena (Registrierter Benutzer)
Greetings! I finished a written description of the Prince Street project.
You can find the entire doc at https://www.dropbox.com/s/6d8pkuawo29bb65/Prince%20Street%20Project%20Description%20Final.pdf
The summary is that, in a long with Jesse Farrel in St. Paul Public Works on Monday, I learned:
1. There was no public meeting to which we were not invited.
2. A little history about the parking and garden behind the Northern.
3. The basic goals of the current Prince Street project.
4. Prince Street will not narrow.
5. A future Prince Street extension project could connect to the new exit off 52.
I even made a rough map of the current and potential future project.
Thanks to Jesse Farrell who helped me make this document and maps as accurate as possible.
LAST QUESTION: After you look at the document, would you please post your about what we should do with this Open issue in SeeClickFix?
Sosan Flynn (Gast)
Serena (Registrierter Benutzer)
My understanding is there would be some sort of intersection offering vehicles the choice of going to 7th or to Prince — so an additional way to enter Lowertown. The map shows about where it would split. I'd hope for a stop sign, but I suspect that's not been planned yet. I also hope/suspect there would good signage that would direct most traffic to 7th.
I also understand that this option to go to Prince Street could be especially helpful for vehicles that don't need to go all the way to Broadway (deliveries to the new stadium perhaps, or to the back of the LRT turnaround building, or even Xcel performer's trucks and busses that park in the lots east of the Northern). It may also be an easy way for cars to access the parking lots to the south of Prince and Kellogg. None of that traffic would go as far as Broadway - a good thing.
I'm still concerned, though, and will want to be involved with the planning process. All Lowertown residents and businesses will want to be involved, I would think. Some people who have the inclination or energy may want to check with their city reps now about all that, to voice concerns, etc. Although my understanding is that those "plans" are merely at the conceptual stage.
Hope this helps!
Jim Ivey (Registrierter Benutzer)
Jennifer Dorris (Gast)
I certainly appreciate your willingness to compile that for yourself and others.
Serena (Registrierter Benutzer)
Serena (Registrierter Benutzer)
Tommyrey (Registrierter Benutzer)
Cynthia Uhrich (Registrierter Benutzer)
Serena (Registrierter Benutzer)
Geschlossen Serena (Registrierter Benutzer)